"THE FUTURE IS IN YOUR HANDS"
I recently got into an argument with my parents about the wrongs and rights that "this generation" does.
We spoke about everything from going to theaters to shooting pool, karaoke and bars.
On some issues I agreed with them, others... not so much.
In middle of the conversation / argument my father said something that I had heard on many occasions that really gets to me. He said: "Back in my day even the worst Bochurim didn't do these things, and while they might not be wrong per se, what liberties will the next generation take if you do these things? What's the next step?"
I have a few issues with this logic:
A) I know many people that don't watch TV, don't listen to (non-Jewish) music, don't and have never had any non-Jewish material in their house at all, and yet their children go behind their backs as children, and openly once they grow up, doing more than I would ever dream of, and I was raised with all of this.
B) Things change! I'm not saying I buy into the "we must change our religion to fit with the times" logic, but the way we conduct ourselves on a daily basis does change with the times. "Men darf leben mit dem tzeiten" in a way (sic).
C) Is it really fair to put the weight of a generation on ones shoulders? How much responsibility can one be expected to uptake and uphold?
So what are your thoughts on this matter? Is there validity to this logic? Is this the way we are meant to live?
Once again ending off confused,
Splattman
We spoke about everything from going to theaters to shooting pool, karaoke and bars.
On some issues I agreed with them, others... not so much.
In middle of the conversation / argument my father said something that I had heard on many occasions that really gets to me. He said: "Back in my day even the worst Bochurim didn't do these things, and while they might not be wrong per se, what liberties will the next generation take if you do these things? What's the next step?"
I have a few issues with this logic:
A) I know many people that don't watch TV, don't listen to (non-Jewish) music, don't and have never had any non-Jewish material in their house at all, and yet their children go behind their backs as children, and openly once they grow up, doing more than I would ever dream of, and I was raised with all of this.
B) Things change! I'm not saying I buy into the "we must change our religion to fit with the times" logic, but the way we conduct ourselves on a daily basis does change with the times. "Men darf leben mit dem tzeiten" in a way (sic).
C) Is it really fair to put the weight of a generation on ones shoulders? How much responsibility can one be expected to uptake and uphold?
So what are your thoughts on this matter? Is there validity to this logic? Is this the way we are meant to live?
Once again ending off confused,
Splattman
posted by Eli Sp. at 8:58 AM
11 Comments:
Well just one little thing you might want to mention to your dad, he is WAY wrong when he says in his generation even the worst bochurim didn't do these things... Please give me a break! didn't YOU ever speak with anyone or hear stories of the earlier generations? Trust me they weren't angels then, and truth be told nothing near it, and yes they had buchurim that were just as bad and if not maybe even worse... people and desires don't change, times and styles and whats popular does but there are always people who get lost and foncused.
Even in the goood ole days when you hear about the great chasidim, what about all those who were chaped by the maskilim? you don't hear about those names! how many great chasidim do we know of? is that all the people there were back in those days, ever think of what the rest of the guys were up too? sure they had the pious simple fold, but ill bet there was plenty more then just pious and simple... or wayback in the days, does pilegesh b'givah mean anything to you?
lots goin thru my head, only time for two comments-one, it says that before moshiach comes, the world will be chaotic like this, with kids being chutzpadik etc etc. yeridot hadorot. and two, 'men darf leben mit dem tzeit' has NOTHING to do with your argument. silly and even contary in a way, to your point.
good luck and stay strong!
Chasidishe: My father wasn't saying that no one did these things, he was saying that today Bochurim who are considered good Bochurim do these things openly.
Sabra: It seems like each generation has yeridot hadorot so who decides when we hit rock bottom?
Of course leben mit dem tzeit has nothing to do with my argument, but as I was writing it I realized that one question was a distorted way of saying men darf... so I threw it in (sic) not meant seriously. I forgot to put in the sic initially it’s in there now.
You're so right about issue A.
Youngsters raised in ultra orthodox environments do not differentiate between watching CNN(which thye consider a grave sin) and an adult movie(which is also a grave sin).
In their eyes deviating once from the right path is wrong, so they have no limits, there are no degrees of how bad something is. Saying hi to a woman is practically as bad as touching her so to speak.
about C, I guess iy's not fair, but isn't the burden shared by all of us?
thanx...
Prag: A) I don't think anyone truly believes that there is no difference between the 2, but I agree that once they believe they are sinners it leads down a treacherous road.
B) The burden is indeed shared by all but that doesn't lighten the load. It's hard to go through life doing things that are acceptable even by lubab standards, and be told that "there may be nothing wrong with it in its essence but if you do this the next generation will be even worse".
Supersplatt: NP sis
Your point is theirs,
Your point is that ":Things change" thats why you are allowed, their point is "things change" and they will keep on changing, so more and more things will be allowed as years pass by.
Mooch: not exactly...
Their point is: If you go with the flow (even by frum standards) what will you tell your kids? how can you stop them from doing what is now wrong but soon will be accepted if you did the same when you were young.
My point: Things change and you can't stop that, I have an uncle who is much respected in the frum community, Magid Shiur etc., and his kids do things behind his back that I would never dream of doing. My uncle never even read a non-Jewish book in his life never mind movies TV music etc., my father did all the above. I grew up with TV and movies in the house, the only movies allowed in my uncle’s house were "chitty chitty bang bang" and the likes. So just because my father did what was permissible but not encouraged when he was a Bochur, according to his logic, should mean that I should be pushing the limits as well, but there are many things I don't do that those that had pious fathers do.
Do you see the difference in our argument?
You can't justify wrong by blaming previous generations. The only thing it may do for you is give you assurance that we can survive. However there are certainly some extremes which were crossed and become commonplace in this later era and that is partialy to blame on society, technology and the melting pot of judaism. Can we survive... I hope so.
Here's a story that a Mashpiah told me recently. This was only about twenty years ago. These were some rebellious bochurim back then, doesn't seem so bad today...
Bunch of guys hop in a car Motzai Tisha B'av to eat in Manhattan. They, as bochurim do, were all excited, and they turned on some really loud "FM music". Everyone was all roudy, etc. in the car. They were on Tillary St. waiting for the Brooklyn Bridge when all of the sudden one guy turns and notices that the Rebbe is sitting in the next car. You can imagine the music went of, and the guys headed straight back to learn in 770....
Different mentality I guess!
The point of the matter is that everyone is grasping a tip of the matter, and it is a multi-tipped issue, and every one points to a different issue to hold.
What I mean is,
(please dont hate me for this)
WE - as a whole - were never designed to live TODAY without moshiach coming. There was a program inserted in everyone that time was over. Life was going to start over. There was never a sense of past future, THERE WAS A HUGE 7-10 year gap in programming for children. Now, when I mean programming, i dont mean brainwashed, i mean in the ideological education of all, there was and for some still is, a hold on progression while we wait for moshiach. The problem the proffessed from this was that now like never before - PEOPLE ARE NOT on the same wavelengths. What is white to some is black to others in ways like never befoer. Between friends, parents and communities, there are now problems stemming that never had such a large holding. Of course there were always problems, but there was a general understanding of positions, and you had your opinion. NO LONGER!! there is a much harder time for people to grasp the others thinking. (I think I need to start a blog)
For a minute example -
For one TV is TUMAH - end of disscussion.
For one - PLAYBOY CHANNEL is tumah, and CNN is fine.
Both opinions are right, and that is where we are lost. It is not that there is a right and a wrong, they are both right and there is (alas) no Tzad ashava!!
When the community is split, the religion (for us ) is split,
interpetaion is split,
what is there for us??
A: I dont know
I am no longer sure of the Rebbe's complete vision. His answers in person were often cryptic, and now are constantly interpeted in two of even three ways. Is there an end to this all, is there a point to life? Absolutely, that is still there, because regardless we WERE UNQUESTIONABLY created by G-D, and he had a purpose for us. Ah, the problem is that he also has a wicked sense of humor,
a gutten,
comments appreciated
In defense of the "older generation" they only want the best for their children. They too are living in these times and have to deal with all that life deals. They hope that their children will take heed as ultimately they are responsible for their own lives. Others are looking up to and learning from all that you do.
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